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Thread: Was the series ready for Cartoons and Comics back then?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonic5993 View Post
    "Sega Y U NO JAPANESE RAGE, RAGE, RAGE" What did Sonic CD change? All it did was add two more characters one of which wouldn't even be all that important until 1998, so what the hell we're they going to adapt with as they had? The OVA was going to be a series but was only able to get 2 episodes, I wonder why.
    lol I'm more or less pointing out that SEGA could've fed them a full backstory if they wanted and they wouldn't have followed it. They already had their heart set on what THEY wanted instead XD Whatever story that SoJ did give them was mutilated

  2. #12
    Senior Member RedMenace's Avatar
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    This again. SOA's story for Sonic is not the one for Archie / SatAM. Every time this problem arises, here comes one or two trying to pass off those storylines as the west alternative story when it isn't. SOA's story is what you can read in the manuals (and ignore the Amy / Sally thing. SOE used Amy correctly, princess Sally was only mentioned to promote the shows in america) and that Sonic bible thing.

    You read those and there is as much of a rift between SOA and SOJ stories as there is between SOA and Archie / SatAM spinoffs as there is between SOJ and that WWII tale stories.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Sonic5993's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Egg View Post
    lol I'm more or less pointing out that SEGA could've fed them a full backstory if they wanted and they wouldn't have followed it. They already had their heart set on what THEY wanted instead XD Whatever story that SoJ did give them was mutilated

    There was no story to go on, which is why they made the shows to begin with. When you have no material, you've got to improvise.
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  4. #14
    Senior Member RedMenace's Avatar
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    There are two SOA stories, i.e. two documents that contain a origin story for Sonic.

    The first, which features the Kintobor story, is probably the best known one. This one was cooked up way before August 1991 because there are some internal reviews of a third party comic issue draft with that date, so the story must have existed way beforehand. Some key points:

    *Sonic has a real name (like Tails), which is Sonny Hedgehog.
    *The story was set on Earth (yes, with capital E). Sonic was born in Hardly, Nebraska, population 1226 (omg humans!), in the early 21st century.
    *Sonic lives with his mother and his five sisters underneath an hedge near the local burger joint (omg humans!). Sonic's father died a few days after he was born due to polution shenenigans. Papa ran really fast as well.

    There are a few snippets about Sonic pulling practical jokes on the humans (omg humans!), for example the local bowling alley (you can guess how) so him having an attitude is as old as dirt. However, he also loves humans (omg humans!) very much so, like playing with children at the park and it was with them that he learnt how to read and write (who cares I know^). Later, he's enrolled into a track team because the coach (omg a human!) saw him running so fast. He was promising hedgehog, they even speak of Olympics. Then there's some contrived bullshot about his mother wanted Sonny to hybernate but he doesn't want to, so he ran away from the hole he was living and dug another to escape, only to fall asleep (wtf).

    From here on, this is the Kintobor story. For those who don't know, here's a summary: Sonic wakes up by the drilling of a machine, and who's driving it is Doctor Ovi Kintobor. He's searching for some kind of emeralds, where he has found six and is looking for the seventh (grey one). He believes that they can be used reverse the effects of polution and restore the planet to its natural and pristine state. Sonny and Kintobor become friends, so much Sonic even equates him to his father, and at some point Kintobor builds a treadmill, where Sonny trained and broke the speed of sound, turning his brown fur into blue. This is when Kintobor names Sonny, Sonic.

    [NERD ALERT]This is actually not explained, but I'll do it for you, as Sonic's name is rather nerdy. On one hand, the word sonic relates to acoustics. On the other, in fluid dynamics the study of an object's speed is done relatively to sound speed. because effects are significant and different if an object is travelling slower, at the transition or quickier than the the speed of sound. Because of linguistics, these speed stages are called subsonic, transsonic, supersonic. When it's travelling exacly at the speed of sound, that is called sonic speed. In truth, Speed would have been a more direct name for a creature that runs really fast. It's only when equated with speed sound that his name becomes meaningful. <3[/NERD ALERT]

    Later on we are filled in about the accident, which is Kintobor trying to hide the emeralds because the machines are going to overdrive for some other contrived crap, tripping in some loose cables and his transformation into evil Robotnik thanks to a rotten egg which was also present on the scene (lol).

    -------

    There are two other stories, both dated June 1991. I am of the opinion that these really are the second story, because the one above must have been ready way before that august review, because it adapts more things from the games, as if they finaly got a hands on approach on the ting, and also because it still mentions the Kintobor story. I don't think there is proof one predates the other, so this is just my educated guess. Regardless and moving on.

    Some key points of the first draft:

    *Sonic is an orphan and lives in Green Hill with his friends, which are the small creatures you rescue from the badniks and the capsules at the end of a stage. NONE is named.
    *From each of his friends, he learnt different skills: Rabbit running really fast, Squirrel how to throw things at other people, Rooster how to cawk and wake everyone in the morning, Seal how to dive and swim and Pig how to roll in the mud and enjoy it.
    *Sonic loves fast food (NOT chilidogs alone).

    Again, the mention of the Kintobor story, with an added bonus. The wretched Mobius word. However, in this case, Mobius refers to South Island alone (Kintobor has put six portals in the six Mobius zones), not the world as some will advocate or then this internal document fails grammar forever.

    Then there's some bios about Sonic and Robotnik, which are rather embarassing at points. Like Robotnik eating with his hands, very slowly. WTF.

    The second draft is the same as the first, though with some differences:

    *The friends are now named. They had names in Japan (or was it that their species, I don't know), but they had no meaning in English, so some were cooked up: Johnny Lightfoot as rabbit, Sally Acorn as squirrel, Porker Lewis as pig, Flicky as the bluebird, Joe Sushi as walrus, Tux as penguin and Chirps as chicken.
    *The things the friends taught are now different. Lightfoot keeps running really fast, Acorn switches to jump great distances, Lewis how to fear fire, Flicky influences Sonic's laidback attitude, Sushi how to dive and swim, Tux how to breathe underwater, and Chirps how to do a Spin Attack (<3).

    There's a few more stuff but I'll spare the details, because they are not important. It has to do with world objects, such as rings, which were scattered after Kintobor's machine exploded, lamposts (no explanation), PCs installed by Kintobor (the monitors) which have been transformed because of the explosion (lazy) and zone theme explanation.

    ----

    As you lot can see, NOTHING of this, NOWHERE has anything to do with Archie or SatAM. SOA's story is VERY DIFFERENT from whatever those two spinoffs did. I'm sick of this old myth still making rounds to this day. I could see the point of advocating STC IS SOA/SOE story though, but not Archie / SatAM. Besides a god damn name, there's nothing in common. Stop it already, for crying out loud. It's embarassing.

    I'll later summarise the manuals, but don't expect Archie / SatAM to be there in any way either.

    edit: Some asked, so I've edited with the documents:

    Internal documents 1 - Sonic Bible
    *Nebraska story
    *Third party comic drafts and reviews
    *Sonic Promotiional Comic (Kintobor story)
    *Sonic the Comic #008 (Kintobor story) - anyone has a direct link for this?
    Internal documents 2 (Draft 1 - Sonic Bible Draft 1 -- animals not named, Draft 2 - Sonic Bible Draft 2 -- animals named)
    Last edited by RedMenace; 12-09-2011 at 06:45 AM.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Nattala's Avatar
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    ^^^ Thankyou. It annoys me when people claim that SEGA's ignoring what they call the 'Western canon' by pointing out how SEGA's 'neglecting' SatAM by not adding any of its elements into the games. SEGA hasn't treated SatAM any different to any of the other Sonic shows because its a derivative of the main product and not the actual story SOA made so it bothers me when people claim SatAM has some sort of right to canon representation within the games. Technically SEGA is ignoring the western canon because none of that Kintobor stuff is in the games but considering most of SOA's story didn't end up in the manuals anyway its not that big a deal.

    I mean unless you count Spinball and AoSTH being made by SOA as them adopting the cartoon's stories but really the cartoon elements were actually more used for the style of those games rather than them actually using the cartoon's stories.
    Last edited by Nattala; 12-08-2011 at 11:56 PM.

  6. #16
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    I'm noticing that much of the complaining here that SatAM/Archie weren't based off the SoA storyline are through the use of material that is not canonical. A bible in this instance is proto-canonical material and can be subject to change. SatAM's bible also was this. The information in it, is not canonical until it is actually expressed in-game/cartoon or through a manual. This is why it was eventually allowed by SEGA for both storylines to disregard much of what was in the bible. However, the story's premise stuck fairly well to the in-manual material. Compare Archie/SatAM to the actual manuals, and not the bibles.

    Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (16-bit) US Manual

    (This is the American story listed in the manual for Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (16-bit).)

    Find the Chaos Emeralds!

    Miles "Tails" Prower, the fox, can't sit still when Sonic's around. Ever since Miles was a baby fox, he's dreamed of being like Sonic. He loves to run after Sonic, waving his two tails behind him, trying to keep up with his hero!

    Mostly, Sonic lets him trail along. But sometimes, just to show off, Sonic explodes in a burst of super speed and leaves him behind. But Miles doesn't give up. He whirls his tails like a helicopter rotor and takes off flying until he catches up!

    All the animals call Miles by his nickname, "Tails", because of his two special tails. And one day they saw an astonishing feat...

    They were all together in the forest, watching Sonic perform. Sonic would run, spin and jump in his Super Spin Attack. Then "Tails" would whirl like a turbo engine and blast off in his Super Dash Attack. What a showoff!

    Suddenly, "Tails" just couldn't help himself. He took a running start, curled up his tails, and - whoosh - he was spinning like Sonic!

    But now something frightening is happening. Sonic's friends are disappearing. In their place, nasty metal robots are popping up all over the island. The mad scientist Dr. Robotnik is at it again!

    This time, Robotnik's planning a global disaster. He needs workers to create a doomsday machine that can take over the world. So he's trapping all the animals, turning them into robots, and forcing them to build his ultimate weapon, the Death Egg!

    Robotnik now rules the factories, refineries and cities! He's grabbed control of everything - except the 7 Chaos Emeralds. These magnificent gems are believed to hold exceptional powers. With them, Robotnik could have the entire world in his grasp. And he'd never let go!

    The Chaos Emeralds are buried somewhere on the island. Only one tough dude with spiky hair has the speed to find them first!

    Help Sonic stop the devious scheme of the demented scientist! Spin like a speedball through space. Grab Power Sneakers and loop 'til you're dizzy. Twirl over twisting speedways and rocket through tunnels. Balance and blast across a bubbling ocean of oil!

    Find the Emeralds, free the animals, and squash Robotnik forever!
    -Tails knowing Sonic since he was young
    -Robotnik actually conquering factories, refineries and cities like Mobitropolis

    Then we have Spinball. The comics and cartoons both understood Spinball (released the same year) to be canonical to the SoA continuity. It was made by a branch at SoA and SEGA did nothing to deny this. As far as I am concerned Spinball was canon at the very least to SoA's storyline. Can you argue it was to "promote the comics/cartoon." That overlooks the interest SoA had in putting these characters into other games. They wanted to incorporate elements that they agreed would be in the show/comics into their published titles. This also doesn't explain how SoA allowed them to deviate from the bible to advertise it in the first place. Again, they were okay with them not sticking to it. Bibles that write up stuff BEFORE much of that backstory/information is released are subject to change. The promo comic with Sonic and Kintobor was also not part of an actual game manual nor in-game material. As such, SoA didn't see the need to bend itself over backwards to accommodate it. It's a bit irritating to see the writers of Archie/SatAM portrayed as some rebels who refused to actually listen to SEGA when SEGA ALLOWED them to do this. This sort of argument erroneously illustrates SEGA as immensely stupid not to know the writers for 2 whole seasons weren't following what was in that material and even longer for Archie.

    The evil scientist Dr. Robotnik has unleashed his most diabolical plot yet to turn the animals of Planet Mobius into robots. His monstrous contraption, the Veg-O-Fortress, built on Mt. Mobius, is already transforming happy creatures into mindless slaves!

    Robotnik's fiendish machine draws its power from the mountain's volcano. Fiery lava fuels the lethal Pinball Defense System that protects the Fortress.

    Sonic and his pal Tails mount an air assault on the Fortress, only to be blasted in mid-flight by Robotnik's cannons. Sonic is knocked into deep waters near the volcano. But he has friends in wet places — and is saved at the last moment!

    Sonic sneaks into the Toxic Caves beneath the Fortress. From there, he infiltrates Robotnik's vast and deadly defenses. In no time at all, Sonic starts swiping Emeralds, freeing the animals of Mobius and dishing out hedgehog justice!

    Yo, Robotnik! You're in for a mountain of trouble now. Sonic is spinning into action!
    *Mobius is established by a game published by SoA the same year
    *Again references to turning animals into robots
    *Sonic knowing Tails since he was really small
    *The game has more than 7 emeralds and before that, Sonic 1 had less than 7. Sonic 3&K will further add inconsistencies to the idea of there being 7 so the comics and cartoons treated the amount as varying regionally.

    Around the time SatAM/Archie came out. There were already games in the works that spoke of Mobius, Robotnik's conquest, Robotnik turning animals into robots and many more than 7 emeralds. Sally Acorn was just like Amy little more than a female face to be rescued. Amy herself would never become all that much more significant until '98 and while STC did adapt her, it wasn't long until she was rewritten to fit a third wave archetype of writing by a feminist editor.
    Last edited by xXMikoXx; 12-09-2011 at 10:38 AM.

  7. #17
    Senior Member RedMenace's Avatar
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    I did say I was planning on doing the manuals soon. And none of what you emphasise has any meaning whatsoever. You can find the same paralels in europe / japanese canon and some of those are COMPLETELY ridiculous, the most blatant being Robotnik conquering cities which he has done in the games (and therefore japanese canon as well) or the robotization one, whose process is nothing alike or even the emeralds one. The Sally comparision, I have no words. The little squirrel and princess Sally are not the same character, so saying she's the same as Amy, an established character in the games, is blatantly grasping at straws. Those comparisions have always been ridiculous. But I'll go into those later. I'm burned out for now. Too much smiling Shadow on pixiv.

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    Y'know, for all the inconsistencies you complain about for the American/European medias, you conveniently overlook a lot of the plotholes that the present Japanese canon has over its original predecessors. I guess that means we shouldn't acknowledge it and SoJ should just do a reboot. =/

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramchopz View Post
    Y'know, for all the inconsistencies you complain about for the American/European medias, you conveniently overlook a lot of the plotholes that the present Japanese canon has over its original predecessors. I guess that means we shouldn't acknowledge it and SoJ should just do a reboot. =/
    The games tend to retkon and fix things (Sonic Adventure changing it so Classic Amy didn't really exist, she was Modern Amy all along!) The moon... Lets go with the Sonic X Fix lol... I'd assume it's Eggman related anywho. What other ones are there?

  10. #20
    Senior Member RedMenace's Avatar
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    Classic Amy wasn't retconned. She just didn't appear in Generations. With the port of CD being so well cared about plus classic Amy in the new console themes, I doubt they really want to retcon that design. It just didn't appear, which is sad and underwhelming (and lazy, she would be harder to model than a mini-Tails after all). The cuteness was too much perhaps, ah!

    The maps... eh, it's magical land, fictional Earth, ruled by seven chaotic emeralds. There's a lot of weird stuff, like flowers dancing on fields. Eh... The moon is still the biggest problem though. LOL X tried to fix it and while it made sense, it's not canon. It will never be addressed though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramchopz View Post
    Y'know, for all the inconsistencies you complain about for the American/European medias, you conveniently overlook a lot of the plotholes that the present Japanese canon has over its original predecessors. I guess that means we shouldn't acknowledge it and SoJ should just do a reboot. =/
    What the- what's that to do with anything on this thread? Weren't we speaking about SOA's stories and what they really meant? About this stupid myth that SOA/west story is Archie / SatAM? Why are you bringing plotholes up all of a sudden?

    My God, I love my avatar.

    Last edited by RedMenace; 12-09-2011 at 05:14 PM.

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