Automation and You - A Feedback thread regarding the Sonic 4 Saga

[MrHaru]

I'm going to do my best to describe why I don't like the automation that 4 has brought on, with its level design and why I will never accept it as a 'classic' despite Sonic CD being tied to it which I still think is a cop-out.

*inhales, exhales*

...damn that's some classy music you chose.

Anyways.

With the boosters in the original games they were simply boosters for extra speed and always changed up slightly in how you approach them. They were never an escape from danger either because it was just there to make you go faster. If you go too fast in Chemical Plant Zone you can lose rings or possibly lose a life, or if you take too much speed in the big..er....candy-cane-colored tubes in Carnival Night Zone, you'll possibly propel yourself too far once hitting regular ground: go too slow and you fall below it and miss the path entirely.

If we're going to go a step further, some levels didn't rely on boosters but the level design to make you fast. Go on the UTMOST top path in Mushroom Hill Zone Act 2 and in the end when you have a million loops, you'll probably rocket out of there faster than any booster could ever hope of doing. Why? Because that's what BLAST PROCESSING IS BABY.

...and even then, the things with all of those speedy sections is you're always forced to pay attention because if you don't you could screw up be it any kind of trap or insta-death. YOU DON'T KNOW and if you do, sometimes you can mess up because to err is human. That goes for all of the classic "Saga" of Sonic 1, 2, CD, 3, and Knuckles.


With Dimpsification and speed boosters, the level is the only trap you have to worry about: not cleverly placed or designed traps or enemies: just the level itself. 9/10 of the time there are enemies placed immediately after speed boosters because you automatically destroy them for free points (And it's usually 3 or 4 of them, back to back). What's more, is it's not speed that's added: it's just one constant speed and it doesn't even look that fast. It's boring to watch and it's handholding to players afraid to learn how to deal with badniks outside of easy combat (Press A to kill everything, of course), unless they're going to homing attack it then.

With Dimps I don't feel like I'm playing Sonic levels with badniks: I just feel the badniks are sorta 'there' and are never a part of the stage.

Sorry. I HAVE to make that point clear.

They're just booster or ladder fodder and MAYBE placed randomly. Don't you remember the first time you were in Lava Reef Zone, and saw that badnik you couldn't kill but he started to glow? Once he exploded you either were like "OH " cuz you lost your rings or "Holy crap, better make sure I have a shield or be Super/Hyper each time I come across him" because you were usually in tightly-close spaces on most encounters.

Or how about ANY story on your encounter with ANY of the badniks? There's hardly anything to really say about those in 4 due to them just being booster fodder or being easily taken out by the homing attack cuz they don't really pose a threat.

....sorry that's slightly off the topic.

Tl;dr version: Original ways the level designs gave you natural boost where you could take and do with what you pleased immediately after given a boost: new way is extremely hand-holding and doesn't even add to speed, it just maxes out at one.

[tinkyisawinky]

Its a shame that so many people think automation has to be bad in sonic now adays...
There are some people who like automation at times, its just alot of people use it wrong. from what ive seen in gameplay videos the auto sections are just as good as 2 and 3s, not very long and not too much.

[Noog09]

This was a very nice and detailed post. The title reminds me of these pamphlets in my doctors office "Asthma and you" "Puberty and you" etc.

[Saberclaws]

If we're going to go a step further, some levels didn't rely on boosters but the level design to make you fast. Go on the UTMOST top path in Mushroom Hill Zone Act 2 and in the end when you have a million loops, you'll probably rocket out of there faster than any booster could ever hope of doing. Why? Because that's what BLAST PROCESSING IS BABY.

...and even then, the things with all of those speedy sections is you're always forced to pay attention because if you don't you could screw up be it any kind of trap or insta-death. YOU DON'T KNOW and if you do, sometimes you can mess up because to err is human. That goes for all of the classic "Saga" of Sonic 1, 2, CD, 3, and Knuckles.

Yes, i do remmember that Mushroom hill act 2 (how could i forget ) where you are rolling so fast it feels awesome to even see the "season" change from automn to "spring", they really did know what they were doing back then, so ain't to say we may not see such things brought on Episode 2, altho we still have no footage of such.

With Dimpsification and speed boosters, the level is the only trap you have to worry about: not cleverly placed or designed traps or enemies: just the level itself. 9/10 of the time there are enemies placed immediately after speed boosters because you automatically destroy them for free points (And it's usually 3 or 4 of them, back to back). What's more, is it's not speed that's added: it's just one constant speed and it doesn't even look that fast. It's boring to watch and it's handholding to players afraid to learn how to deal with badniks outside of easy combat (Press A to kill everything, of course), unless they're going to homing attack it then.

That's Dimps proving they can only offer you speed in the form of a booster pad, quite unfortunate, i can see some great use of momentum in sylvania castle act1, (Right off the bat) but then, it feel's like they are in constant disagreement, because even tho you have a place where momentum brings back it's full capabilities, there are still unecessary boosters (and springs) making sure you keep on top speed, it's more of a drag back then anything else.

With Dimps I don't feel like I'm playing Sonic levels with badniks: I just feel the badniks are sorta 'there' and are never a part of the stage.

Sorry. I HAVE to make that point clear.

They're just booster or ladder fodder and MAYBE placed randomly. Don't you remember the first time you were in Lava Reef Zone, and saw that badnik you couldn't kill but he started to glow? Once he exploded you either were like "OH " cuz you lost your rings or "Holy crap, better make sure I have a shield or be Super/Hyper each time I come across him" because you were usually in tightly-close spaces on most encounters.

Or how about ANY story on your encounter with ANY of the badniks? There's hardly anything to really say about those in 4 due to them just being booster fodder or being easily taken out by the homing attack cuz they don't really pose a threat.

....sorry that's slightly off the topic.

Tl;dr version: Original ways the level designs gave you natural boost where you could take and do with what you pleased immediately after given a boost: new way is extremely hand-holding and doesn't even add to speed, it just maxes out at one.

You pointed up fair topics on why speed feels dull on Dimps side of the track, they don't really demonstrate knowing the placement of things (yet), and it still feels rather random to my taste, it feels like they have yet to master the speed sections, with the placement for proper platforming. Their recepy is still a bit odd..

[Badnick-wise]

Yup, it feel's Dimps alright, bringing in the 2-3 badnicks out of fodder is something you usualy see alot of time's, rarely there is even an badnick that stands up to you, i actualy enjoy the bear and multiple hit badnicks's simple because they, at least, now some of them stand a chance!
I also enjoy the Flamethrower badnick on the oil desert zone. He makes you be weary of when to hit him and does some sort of fire conteratack based on the very oil you’re standing in, clever use of the level itself, i’ll give them that

But even those are few in comparison to some "fodder" badnicks lyin' around :<, Reason why i, among many others hate the bubble's chain straightway to "heaven" xP, is simply because they can't fight back, there are very few time's where you encounter, at the end of an "bridge" an red bubble's.
What's ridiculous is that if every Bubble's had a Spike Defense, the problem would pretty much be resolve'd on that matter and if, say, each of them activate'd the spike defense at different time's at least it would require more input from the player.
Even that badnick in White park feel's so harmless, the poor guy dies to a snowball :<, (altho i like'd the gimmick i'd like to see this explored in other ways) maybe they have something nice in store for that gimmick, who knows .. :P

The way the game is constructed still feel's way to automated, which is sad, they have so much to work with, but they are yet to master that science of Platforming Level design and Speed key ingrediants for this cake.

[MrHaru]

See guys? That's how you reply to discerning opinions: the way how Saberclaws did it. Not hard, right?

[Aaronterasu Okami]

Sega I don't want to watch I want to play.

[Crabmeat]

You weren't kidding about creating an interesting thread Saberclaws. That was indeed a doozy of post!

So here I go ready to add my two cents. *cracks Knuckles* Ooops. Sorry Knuckles.

I feel as though automation has been working its way into the Sonic franchise for quite some time now. It is a bit disheartening, but sadly lots of video games have been going this direction for a long time now, just in a different way.

Now I may be an old timer here, but back in my day video games didn't pretend to be interactive movies or constantly try to offer a cinematic experience. Video games were video games. Then came the unskippable cut scenes and quick timed events that cause you to press buttons at the right time...etc. Sonic does this too now, but it has arguably been building since the first time you had to hold forward to avoid the Flying Battery bombs in Angel Island Zone.

Buuut...I'll try to cut to the chase here. Sonic games have been trying to create "sizzling" in game cinematic moments for a long time now. It's all flashy stuff that you have little to no control over. All sizzle but no steak. What is the most memorable part of Ice Cap Zone? The automated snow boarding. What is the most memorable part of Emerald Coast? The automated whale chase with dash pads on a dock. Even the almighty Colors had the automated running on a lighted path at the beginning of Starlight Carnival.

"Ok Crabmeat but what about Sonic 4, where are you going with this?"

Heh...I'm not exactly sure, but while I am hoping the level design of Episode 2 delivers, obviously there are concerns of springs, boosters...etc. Sadly they are there so that you do EXACTLY what the developers want you to do.

Like a director planning a big scene in a movie they want to make sure the audience is wowed by what Sonic can do. They don't want you to go half way up a loop and fall back down. They don't want you to have that learning experience everyone had back in Sonic 1 where we didn't get through that first loop and said "hmm...guess I need to get more of a running start." Nope. Instead a booster or two will be placed at the start of the loop de loop and BAM...there you go.

Kind of sad really, because accomplishing something using your own momentum is such a beautiful thing.

BUT nah. The action needs to keep moving. It needs to be fast and flawless. Sonic is speedy platformer so he must constantly be on the go go GO! At least that seems to be the mentality now.

So in the end there is always going to be some kind of flashy cinematic moment in Sonic games. It is a given. I hope that eventually a balance is reached because each time Sonic is back for more they have to out do the last level or game that came before it...but more often than not it comes at the expense of the player's enjoyment. One minute its a fun first time experience but then the next minute it becomes an "unskippable" in game cut scene. I hope that made some kind of sense, and might offer a slightly different perspective on why automation has become such a big deal lately and why it has subtly crept into a 2D game marketed as Sonic 4.

(For the record I still think the game looks fun and I plan on getting it. I'm just hoping all the cinematic scripted spring booster isn't as overwhelming as it appears to be in the trailers and gameplay footage.)

[hypersonic2560]

Oh god Saberclaws, that OP was huge. And as you might know I'm not too fond of reading walls of text.
Summary please?

[Dr. BaconStein]

The difference between things such as boosters/springs and automated scripting is that boosters and springs don't lock the controls for an extended period of time and force you to watch Sonic run. You can just jump over/around them if you want to, just like dash panels or bumpers or what have you. Sometimes doing so can even improve your time depending on the situation. Now compare that to something like this:



This is my definition of automation. It's more than just a quick burst of speed or bouncy section, it literally rips the controller out of your hand just to show you something that's supposed to look cool or important. Things like running down the wall in City Escape Act 2 or the helicopter in Speed Highway Act 2 where you'd like to just jump off and keep going but can't for no apparent reason are what I call automated, whereas boosters are just, well... boosters.

This is where the whole "boost/hold forward to win" thing came from, by the way. When they separate the game into two extremes of blocky precision platforming sections and sections nothing but running, it leaves you with a jarring and inconsistent series of starting and stopping. Sonic 4 is the opposite, a smooth mix of both.

Honestly, if anything that grants Sonic some extra speed and keeps the flow going is just going to fall under automation, they may as well just remove every slope and spring from the game and call it Sonic Colors 2.

[hypersonic2560]

^^I find it weird that you gave examples for automation from both colors and generations but not from Unleashed HD which in my opinion was overall more automated even if you look at it with your definition of automation.